As one of the founders of On Our Backs (dubbed the "Magazine for the Adventurous Lesbian") and Fatale Media (the first "authentic" lesbian porn company), you've survived identity politics, the "Porn Wars," and two Presidents Bush.
How has the lesbian porn business changed over the 23 years you've been in it?
"Well for one thing, there actually is a lesbian porn business now! When we started, it was like missionary work. There was no lesbian porn in the early 80s -- none. Now there are at least a handful of companies creating dyke porn. And, more importantly, dykes are recognized as a market for porn to be produced for, and there are marketing and selling resources for lesbian porn. That's huge. Basically, when we were making our first porn, we were limited to selling directly to lesbians via mail order.
Now, you have many sex-positive retail stores and a multitude of websites for lesbians to find lesbian porn. The lesbian porn market has definitely evolved in the last 20 years."
What got you into the sex business in the first place?
"It all started in the late 70s. Back then, the lesbian culture was dominated by the anti-porn, politically correct faction. I met my lover, Debi Sundahl, cofounder of On Our Backs, working on the committee which put on the Take Back the Night Rally in Minneapolis! I was teaching street-fighting self-defense courses while Debi worked at the Harriet Tubman Shelter for Battered Women. We were radicalized about women's control of their bodies and their safety.
However, once Debi and I became more than just friends, we discovered we both had always enjoyed pornography -- Penthouse, Playboy & such. We disagreed with the Violence-Against-Women movement's increasing focus on pornography as the cause of the violence. Plus, the anti-porn attitude was influencing lesbians in a very negative way around their own sexuality. For example, penetration by any means was perceived as a violent, male-identified, dominant act, and was therefore not to be done. Lesbians were having very limited, politically-correct, side-by-side sex.
It was at this juncture that we split from this anti-porn, anti-sex culture in Minneapolis and moved to San Francisco in the hopes of finding a more open attitude toward sexuality. However, even in San Francisco, only the S/M lesbians were open to and exploring their sexuality, and we joined Samois, the lesbian S/M club.
What started as a very personal sexual exploration soon became political. We'd go to the women's bookstore in search of anything about lesbian sexuality and found nothing. It was as if lesbians weren't sexual. But, we knew there were plenty of lesbians [who were] into exploring sexuality. The problem was that the anti-porn lesbians controlled the general lesbian culture, including the press.
In response, Debi and I decided to make our own porn. On Our Backs started from a very personal need and expression. We got together with our friends, took some photos, solicited erotica, and scraped together money to print the first issue in 1984. We were a bunch of sex radicals expressing ourselves and having a great time. At that point, we weren't thinking about the magazine as a business or money-making lesbian porn endeavor. It was the lesbian sex wars, and we were on the front line."
In the 80s and early 90s, lesbian sexuality was still something largely ignored by the mainstream media. These days it seems ubiquitous. What do you think of the representation of lesbian sexuality you see in the mainstream media?
"These days I think it's very trendy and somewhat racy. Plenty of straight men love to look at lesbians, and that's the intended market -- straight men. The images of lesbian sexuality embraced by mainstream media are still very narrow, basically femme on femme. I enjoy femme on femme, too, but there are many more variations of lesbian sexuality that aren't represented by mainstream media. You only see women who fit the mainstream idea of beautiful, for example. You don't see butch women or trans-women -- women who may be threatening to men. It's all very fluffy and not very real."How do you feel about the distinction often made between "authentic" and "inauthentic" lesbian porn?
"It's a true distinction. The inauthentic "girl-girl" porn, which is very popular and produced mostly by mainstream adult companies, usually features very femme women performing sexually for the intended male viewer. This can be fine and enjoyable for many. However, I think most lesbians would prefer to watch authentic lesbian porn, featuring women they can recognize as lesbians doing things which they can recognize as real lesbian sex -- sex they might actually have and get off on. In the authentic lesbian porn, the sex is more varied, the performers are more into it, and they usually don't fake orgasms."
Do you think that only women, or only women who identify as lesbian, can or should be creating representations of lesbian sexuality?
"I think at first, it was important that lesbian porn was created by women or lesbians, so the distinct genre was recognized and accepted. Now, I think the market is open enough that anyone with a lesbian sensibility can create it. I think that's the direction we're headed, and I think it's natural growth. "
Can you talk about what that "lesbian sensibility" is? Where do you think it comes from?
"Well maybe I spoke too quickly, and perhaps the market isn't quite there yet. Soon I think! By lesbian sensibility, I meant a knowledge for and appreciation of real lesbian sex and lesbian culture. It comes from knowing lesbians and being around them a lot, being open to them, and looking at the lesbian porn that's out there. The producer/director may not actually be lesbian, but would need to be able to recognize and hire performers who can portray authentic lesbian sex. I think the performers are the most important factor -- getting the right mix of chemistry and believable lesbian sex. Lesbians are usually turned off by women faking being into the sex they're doing, or faking orgasms. So, at the very minimum, to create lesbian porn, at least the performers need to portray real lesbian sex. Everyone else involved can be het/bi/trans or whatever -- they only need to recognize what it is they're creating."
In 2008, Fatale Media will be 23 years old. What are you working on now, and what's next?
"More of the same! We've branched out this past year [2007] into distributing other company's products, the SIR titles and Early to Bed titles. We're planning a big upgrade to our website, getting streaming video and more photos on the site. And, right now, we're working with Panic Culture in Paris to bring some French lesbian porn into the US -- [we are] very excited about that!"
Has being a pornographer changed your sex life?
"I think in my case the reverse may be true -- when we first produced lesbian porn, my sex life influenced pornography! Remember, there wasn't any real lesbian porn around back in the early 1980s, none. So when we created the first lesbian porn, On Our Backs magazine and Fatale Videos, the sex we showed was the sex we did. We photographed and filmed ourselves and our friends, all different types of lesbians having all different types of lesbian sex -- real lesbian sex.
It defined and initiated real lesbian porn as it is today. And, yes, I would say being a pornographer has changed my sex life -- at the very least, I've learned a few new tricks! I came into pornography with a curious and open mind about sex to begin with, but I think my sex life has been enriched by being around so many people enjoying sex.
Some say being in pornography makes you jaded about sex, but I haven't found that to be true. I think the more you're around sex, the easier it is to get turned on and into sex."
Do you think that being a pornographer has changed the way you think about sex?
"Being a pornographer has helped me to be way more appreciative of how important sex is to people -- what a huge part of everyone's life it is, and how powerful it is. And, being a pornographer has given me a true appreciation for the generosity many performers have in sharing themselves intimately with the viewers."